From A Punjab Village To CEO of Birbals Inc: How He Hires In Multiple Countries

When I started, I tried to do almost everything myself. But over time, I realized if you have to build a company, it's not about doing everything yourself. It's about trusting people and helping them grow. Initially, delegating was not easy, right? I was always skeptical of how they'll handle the clients, how they'll handle the work. But then I realized that people need opportunities to take responsibility. They make mistakes and then that they self-confidence. For me, leadership is about helping others succeed, not just myself.

I love that line. When you're opening a role, how do you think about it? India verse California verse remote anywhere. Are you guys in office anywhere? You mentioned you look for the same characteristics but like operationally how do you structure it?

So you know when we have a

Welcome to who we hire. I'm your host Luiz Cent. Every founder starts the same way. Doing all the work yourself. web design, backend code, client calls, it's all you. Then one day you can't. You hire somebody and you have to learn your standards. They have to learn your processes, your client expectations. And today we're talking to someone I'm really excited to find out more about his journey. Uh Pawan Bangar founded Birbals uh 20 years ago in India, moved it over to Silicon Valley where he is now and now leads a distributed team throughout five different markets, web to mobile, mobile to cloud, cloud to blockchain, now blockchain and AI. And each time his team has had to reinvent themselves, he's had to reinvent themselves and we're really excited to be talking to Pawan today. So thanks for being here.

Thanks for having me, Loose.

Pleasure is all mine. So let let's go back to the very early days of Birbals when you were doing all the delivery yourself. What what was the the first thing that you handed off to somebody else?

So Louis I'll start uh when it all began. So I was in um I think second year of engineering college you know where I started then uh I went to Mumbai, India for internship. So there I met a few you know like-minded people like few entrepreneurs right but they were into the hospitality business. So you know I started uh you know from building websites for them. So there it all started and uh rest is history. So but uh to answer your question is like when I started I tried to do almost everything myself you know but over time I realized you know building if you have to build a company it's not about doing everything yourself it's about trusting people right and helping them grow so you know initially delegating was not easy right I was always skeptical right how they'll handle the clients how the you know they'll handle the work but then I realized that people need opportunities you know to take responsibility you know they make mistakes takes and then they develop confidence. So for me leadership is is about helping others succeed not just myself.

I love that line and you know on your LinkedIn in your headline you say people right? So you talk about growing people and giving people opportunity. How did you learn to do that?

See I have always believed that talent has uh no boundaries right. So my you know the you know when I meet somebody right I'll give you an example. So sometimes you meet somebody who's very talented, compassionate, talented but at that time you know you don't have uh you know work for them but I always keep in contact and I'll try to find right sim you know some projects uh you know which are you know relevant for those people and uh you know other thing which I've done is like I'm not restricted to any place. So if I find uh any talent right anywhere in the world right you know who deserves a chance you know I'll hire that person. So that brings us uh you know the flexibility and the opportunity to bring best of the best.

Love it. The um you just hit on something that a lot of our listeners are trying to figure out how to hire. Most of them are from the US and figuring out how to hire in other countries. you started in India and then you built your team in the US. How how was that for you? Was that difficult getting set up? Talk me through like what that move was like and you know now you're in a an amazing property in in Silicon Valley and the era of AI. You're in in arguably the best place in the world right now. Uh talk to me through that. See you know you know you know when I hire right you know whether someone is in India or Silicon Valley right I look for the same qualities you know if somebody's willing to learn commitment and respect for each others so technical skills matter but character matter just as much I don't I don't just look at what someone knows today right I am focused on what someone can learn and become

wow so what someone can learn and become can you give me some examples uh of some folks on your team and no maybe some that have been with you for quite some time and you you've seen them evolve.

Yeah. So I'll give you an example. So I had uh you know one time I was on on walk right so I had this cold call from a guy you know from India sharing some product right and then we had a brief discussion and I found that you know he has that spark right so the communication started and you know after you know a few weeks I hired that guy and that guy was 18 years old at that time with no formal education and all that stuff right but I knew that he has you know that thing in M so he started you know we started him as a QA you know and then moved to you know client communication then project management right now six you know years or 7 years down the lane he's managing you know all the operations in India right living a good life gave him the opportunity and you know uh like I said delegating toward to others has you know in reality helped me so that's a big case study and you know in our company I don't have any requirements for formal education if you can do my Right. If you can, you know, keep the client happy, you know, you are ready to go in.

I love it. So, how are you able to recognize that like that he had no qualification, no educate? Was it hunger like the mentality or the questions he had like how were you able to recognize that?

So, you know, I think you know, working uh as an entrepreneur in all these years, right, I have learned right how to talk to people and figure out stuff. So you know there are people who are you know for example I'll see right if there is an opportunity right what's the response time is the guy following up or he is like you know just let it go so I've seen people you know follow up multiple times trying to you know just you know get that opportunity right and you know if somebody's like willing to learn and is you know has the plan to stay for a while you know I have that person because you know retention is also our key thing right we have guys who have been working with us for years and years and you know we give them proper growth you know everything. So what kind of talent like when you're opening a role how do you think about it India verse California verse remote anywhere how are you guys in office anywhere how do you um you mentioned you look for the same characteristics but

like operationally how how do you structure it? So you know when we have any requirement right so the first thing is uh getting the right person for it it could be in Puerto Rico it could be in India it could be in Melbourne when the job opening starts we'll open it right uh remotely everywhere

well now we're probably trying to see you know can can we solve it with AI first

yeah see the thing is right AI cannot work you know on its own so you need to you need guys you know who you know who who are willing to learn and use AI to build products right so What what's happening these days is right initially there were different components let's say if you have to build a website right so there would be a UI component right there would be a user experience then there will be front end development back end development all that stuff now what we have changed is right we are trying to hire full stack guys right a guy who knows a little bit about everything right it's should it's not like he knows a lot but you know if he knows a little bit of everything and use AI tools to you know develop products you know you know that's how we structure you've gone through a lot of shifts, right? You shifted from web to mobile. The like when you're navigating that, how how are you steering the ship? How is it are you getting folks bought in? Is it and is it different when you steer a ship in different cultures?

So, you know, we have seen a lot of ship, right? Uh so what we do is for example you know you know few a decade back we were also you know offering search engine optimization and that time and then you know we restricted ourselves we stopped doing it but there were people in the team who you know were doing that job. So what we did is instead of laying them off we you know gave them opportunities training tools where they can learn and do this shift. So we brought the people from search engine optimization. So you know some we went it took them to QA part right for some we started you know front-end development teaching for them so we should we could retain that so that's what we have been doing right uh we'll give again opportunity to stay and uh that's how it goes with Birbals

I love it it's so essentially you know now it it's AI you have a well-branded AI website your AI development AI automation that people are just learning about all this, but y'all have adapted so quickly. Is that what's instilled that urgency in you? Why why do you have that that urgency and how do you stay ahead as a CEO?

So, uh, Louis, the thing is right, uh, this this is part of our job. For example, if I'm leading a team of de, you know, people, you know, it could be de developers, you know, full stack guys, you know, QA guys. So you know what I see is right we are running you know at the same time we're running households also. So I have to pivot quickly right because I have to you know take care of my team right so you know we have to do it. So what I do is right I keep on uh you know for example uh two three years back right so what I was thinking is like you know management wise right then maybe we are not growing that much. So I took the burden on me that it could be me right who is the bottleneck right. So what I did is like I went to Wharton right did a exeactive program for a year. It was like it was a global seuite program. So we learned you know different management skills uh you know different uh things in neuroscience so that uh you know I could implement all those things in uh in berbas.

So that's right

right. Yeah. So the thing is you know and it was like this thing right it was me spending tons of money on me right so that I can learn Birbals better so you know if there are conferences right uh you know I keep up to date on you know let's say Twitter X for what's happening right and then you know and luckily you know when chat GBT came right after you know we implemented it in our team right after that uh you know luckily we got a couple of projects where there was need for AI implementation and we started like at uh development part two three years back I'm still you know we're working multiple apps uh you know which use AI for better performance and efficiency

so we and I love what you said that right like one of the best investments is in you to be able to go and invest and take care of your team um it it sounds like it's it's deeper like than just money for you. So like what what's your why behind your boss?

You know, uh I am always a people first guy, right? For me, people building relationship is the key, right? Rest, money, you know, it it it it's a byproduct, right? For example, if you know most of the CEOs, right, most of the corporate corporate people what they do is they'll h they'll have the like employees, right? If their employees are taking care of the clients, right? If they are doing stuff properly, you know, then they, you know, take care of the people. I do the opposite, you know, I take care of my people, right? If you take care of your team, the team will take care of the client, right?

So, what are what are some ways? Give me some examples of how you do that.

So, one thing I you know, in all these years, right? You know we it's it has never happened that an employee comes to the office and he's said you know he's told that you're laid off. Even for example if we have to lay off a certain person. So what we do is we give them ample opportunities first to stay in the company learn and then what we do is uh you know uh you know we help them getting new opportunities right if they got some referrals you know we give them proper referrals so that you know because I know right everybody's running a household everybody has mortgage payments and all that stuff so we give that value right so everybody knows right you know they'll not be suddenly laid off you you know things like that. Now we give proper uh you know incentives we give proper raises every year. It's not like you know most of the corporate you know you know thing what happens is like started crying at the end of the year when the you know bonus time is there and all that stuff. So so we give them proper growth. We give them proper peace of mind. So another thing is like my thing is like if my guy you know goes home on time right with less headache no pressure and you know so he'll have a good time at home also right if he's having a good time at home also next day he'll come perform better so I have kept this that there should be no stress in our office right nobody can bully nobody right and my thing is right people should feel happy you know when they're coming to office instead of being stressed out How did you learn this at Wharton? Were you implementing this before then? What? This is amazing advice.

Yeah. Yeah. So the thing is Louis right I have learned uh you know because things happened to me. So I never knew right. So you know I was stressing out you know when all these pivots were happening right web to mobile and then AI and all this stuff right so things don't go smoothly right so there are times uh you know where things are not in good shape right and you are stressing out but you don't even know that that there is tons of stress right then you get those health concerns and all that stuff where numbers starts changing so then I realized right so you know it happens to every human right if it happened to me I don't want it to happen to my team right so that's where we started changing these policies and all that stuff so you know beable is a relaxed and happy environment for everybody

then you you work with HR to go and implement that are you using AI more to go in and and manage workplace culture and and sentiment and happiness is there a way to measure that

yeah see HR is you know the again the basic stuff done from HR right so what I have done is right uh another thing which have implemented in the uh team is right work-wise there are tears but if somebody has grievances right if somebody has to report something and talk about something everybody has my direct contact they can contact me on phone email WhatsApp I'm just a call away so and everybody in the team knows that okay you know if if there is something happening you know it could reach to someone directly so that's how I implement

so I I don't know if you ever uh read or listened to the book the culture map by by Aaron Meyers. She talks about hiring and working in different countries. So you know she uh spent a lot of time in France and had a a really difficult time in France and I I don't recall right now in in India is it more egalitarian or hierarchical is there there is a there is a boss right and everybody like there there's a big boss right in India versus um like compared to the US where it's more flatter sometimes. So Louis uh I have implemented uh similar ways right the way I work in US you know it's sim similar right so we have the same culture in India so there is no boss type of thing there

they've adopted the US more like the US methods okay

we are like like what I do what I do is like we are very flexible right for example let's say Thanksgiving break here okay so when we have Thanksgiving break, Christmas breaks and all that stuff. So most of the clients are busy right in vacation mode, holiday mode, right? We have less work at that time. So what I do is like I give off to team you know in those days right sometimes uh people have their local festivals or you know statewise or culture wise. So what I do is like I also you know instead of having these national holidays right I also you know I consider that if they want to switch right for example let's say somebody wants to you know work on a you know let's say Christmas but he wants to take off on his own festival so we all that flexibility

I love that flexibility it it sounds like you really created uh a great model to keep talent to grow talent uh and you have a great process for for finding talent the so you're it doesn't sound like you want to replace everybody with AI like uh like some people on LinkedIn what why is that why do you think that we still need humans uh for for roles

see the thing is right so you know uh some time back right if you see you know all these cloud security companies you know the stocks were going down right everybody was thinking right when AI is going to write code there would be no security issues and all that stuff right when they see right all those AI threats also coming right so you know people started trusting these companies back right so what the thing is right if if you are using AI right let's say you know most of the people you know young developers they are using AI to do wipe coding right why coding as per me is not production ready right you need human intervention so what I believe is you know like you know Jensen from Nvidia or CEO says right so you'll be if you going to be replaced by somebody who's using AI right if you have let's say 5 years experience right and somebody else also have five five years experience same field everything right you are not using AI he's using AI he's going to replace you because he'll be more efficient right I mean better so what I do is like you know as soon as all these tools came right we gave everybody a subscription for it right it it's imple For what?

Get get specific with me. What did you what did you get

the GBT?

Are you asking are you asking about the tool? So we have multiple right? We all we use claude we use chat GBT we use cursor. So you know whatever you know you know developer or teammate is comfortable with or you know flexible whatever they want

doesn't matter

whatever they want. Yeah. And then we also do cross check right cross check you know for code you know peer reviews and all that stuff. And have you seen a significant impact by allowing them to choose their tools and embrace it? Uh have you seen people that have really taken off and some that you've had to push more and and you know it you you've done this before. You've pivoted many times before. You're like you said you need to there there's no choice other than to stay ahead um in in your business. So what happens when somebody is like no like I'm not going to use AI? uh see you know that's uh tough right because if somebody says I'm not going to use AI right then he's not going to have uh you know that performance and efficiency right so what we'll do is right we'll have seniors right you know who will be you know teaching right how to use these tools and have better efficiency or we we may uh you know put them in uh let's say a certain field you right where there is less AI usage In terms of code, um you you said it's never production ready. You don't think it's going to get production ready in the next year?

I see the thing is I always believe there has to be human intervention, right? You you see all these AI agents, right? Uh you know, breaking rules and trying to hack stuff and all that stuff, right?

What is human intervention? What is what exactly does a human need to do in the loop?

The human needs to do is like you know for example the code review, right? So if if the code is being built right the human intervention is you know he has to check you know the whole review the whole code so that

you don't think agent will be better at that than a human.

Yeah but again right it could be but not now

still it's still needed. Yeah,

still still needed and uh uh let's see, you know, I believe in few years, you know, things going to change, but we'll see what happens when

So, you don't you don't think the acceleration is here for you to trust it with code in in a year? You think it's going to take longer to really?

I think so. I think so.

Are there any roles that you've seen like, hey, AI does this way better? I'll give you I'll give you an example. I used, you know, to have a an assistant and it it was another person to manage, right? Um, and I didn't need somebody full-time, just here and there. And I'm getting solar quotes right now. And I'm using GPT. It's connected to my email. And I don't write well in Spanish. I can speak it, but I I I cannot write it. Most of these are in sp. It's just negotiating for me. It's following up. It's scheduling them on my calendar. Uh, it's all connected to my work and personal calendar, knows my preferences, and it would take me a long time to get an assistant to get where GPT is right now. It would take me, you know, at least 2 months to to train her up on on on it. So, that's a role and there's a lot of talks like the junior developer roles are going away or, you know, we had Yoni from Lucia on last week. He has clients that have SDRs, AI SDRs as part of his SAS that are seeing success that are that are having uh success out there. So I'm always I'm always curious in like what roles are you like for sure like this is going to get replaced versus uh this is something that I'm more um you know I always think a human will need to be there like a relationship right that's

that that you know I'm not going to you know think how Chad GPT is doing when I go to sleep and and oh did I treat her well today at least not now

so you know any process right which is rapid repetitive right which slows down stuff you know AI agents are best at doing it right for example or you just mentioned right writing emails right let's say you have to write a piece of content you know even you write some you know text right you'll get a you know you know better version of it right for also QA part right so there are some things right which is uh you know manually being repeated right though any type of repeated process I think it's going to go away but still uh you know you need people you know to create those processes.

What about you? How are you using it in your dayto-day?

Mostly uh we'll use for poding. uh then uh I use it for emails right because sometimes you have to write long emails and all that stuff right so or email reviews so that's how I use uh research wise right uh also for example you know we just built uh one app we launched it now the thing is right what has happened is like you know we need less people to do more work so we you know two people me and one other person right in the team you know we took two months to build that app which you know going to take uh let's say 2 years for example you know if without AI so what we do is like for example we are not uh you know let's say previously if we had to hire 10 people maybe we are hiring four right now right and doing better uh job uh you know at working on things

so that's that's how we use

when it comes to values and mission um how do you use those in in your your company, is that something that you believe uh you you really need to reinforce? Is it um is it just wishy-washy and it it that there's really no merit to it? What what do you believe? What have you learned in Wharton? um share with us what missions and values and and beyond somebody collecting a paycheck at Birbals is what you know um you you talked about a few other things such as psychological security uh opportunities treating them like a human you know during the layoff or things like that but um talk to me about valleys a mission

see you know um you know the one thing I teach and tell my team is Right? So the in the client, right? So the client is uh you know spending some money for his product or project to be done right. So at the end of the day is like one thing I learned from my dad is right if somebody's you know let's say paying you 100 bucks okay and if you do work which is worth 150 right in good quality the person would be happy right and same thing I tell my team also right that when we are working okay if you are working if I've given you a project or certain task right let's say the task is 4 hours Right? I don't want that. Okay? You know that in your time sheet or things like that, you know, you mentioned 8 hours, right? If you have 4 hours of work, right? It's 4 hours of work. The issue is on me if you guys have less work, right? So, you know, so same thing, right? When billing clients, right? Taking care of them, right? Somebody uh you know, is always available on a message, on an email, right? So that's what I tell is like if we take care of that client right then things will be fine for Birbals. So I'll give you an example 2020 right covid hit right and I think we were one of the few companies who didn't lay off anybody who didn't uh you know reduce uh salaries so I knew companies that oh you know because there is no work or less work there would be 10% of reduction 20% production things like that right we were fortunate that we were not doing that because of the client relationship We had right we all these years we had valued clients right we have taken you know utmost care of them right so when things like covid came nobody canceled on us right there were some clients who we got delayed payments but you know we were paid back and also at the same time there were some clients who really got hit right in some industries so we for example they we had a retainer with them right we were taking care of uh you know their maintenance and all that stuff so I told them also that okay you know uh don't worry about the billing part as of now right we have been together all these years so we'll survive this also we kept you know doing work for them you know we delayed the payments and all that stuff eventually things went well after you know few months or a year and you know everybody was uh you know nice you know they cleared all our dues so that's how you know I build relationship right so that's how I teach my team also

that's that's incredible uh what an inspiring story. I mean, it would have been easy for you to follow the trend, right? Okay, everybody's cutting teams in half. Um, even now with AI, the the trend continues and and you see, you know, companies like Square, Facebook, Amazon do mass layoffs and uh some blame it on AI, others blame it on overhiring. It's probably a mix in my in my opinion, but it it sounds like you've always had a efficient company uh where where you you weren't in that situation which is uh which is good. So right I have never used well trodden pass right. So most of in the teachings and management and all their stuff. So they follow certain pattern right certain pattern of running companies and all that stuff. I never believed in that right. So I always had you know my own way of working right and fortunately it has worked right and in the hiring process I'll tell you another thing. For example, if we hire somebody, okay, and let's say you are letting that person go after 3 months or 4 months or 6 months,

then we take the blame on us.

Okay. It's not the candidate is bad. It's like our selection was bad. But we were never Yeah. It was my fault, right? Otherwise, you know, we could have selected a person who would have stayed for us, you right? Because we have all those processes in place. So we are very careful right uh you know when we are in talking with people and all that stuff. So we never have this mentality okay that if this project is coming right let's hire thousand 100 people straight away you know after 3 months let's lay off them things like that. So when I hire somebody you know my plan is okay do I have 2 years of work for him? do have enough projects and commitments retainers where I can have this person for at least two years or more. Right. So that's how I don't hire for temporary basis.

Love it. So something you touched on earlier. You you went towards it. You went back there, but this is this is a couple years ago. So uh 2023 2024. So you had already been a CEO for over a decade. Why why did you decide you wanted to go to Wharton? What were you hoping to get out of it and what did you get out of it? Uh

that's a good question. So in all these years what has happened me was like you know I was the founder right and I I had all that journey right. So in my company right so whatever my instructions were whatever whatever I wanted to implement you know it got implemented whether it was right or wrong right because people are reluctant to come forward and say that hey boss whatever you are implementing is not right right

so you know then came a situation where I was like you know I'm trying everything and everywhere right but you know the the pace where we should grow in the way we should grow is not happening so I went to warden for a uh one year program. Then there was this leadership program for 6 months. Then there were some electives. So I chose uh one of my electives was neuroscience right and it really helped me right in the way you know your customer is thinking or the user is think for example if you're building a app right now if you see you know uh the way uh you know your you know audience thinks right that really helps right in uh you know when you're building products or even talking to your team. So why like what are some things that you learn in neuroscience and they just had a really good professor of neuroscience there were were you able to

same yeah a very good professor Michael one of the best I think in neuroscience Michael platt so tons of stuff for example I'll give you a uh you know certain case studies right so for example there are certain case studies that okay on Apple and Samsung right so how people you know uh respond when hearing good and bad stuff about their bands, right? Things like that.

So, you know, and for example, how you know what's the mindset of certain set of people, right? So we had all those case studies you know and then you know a few things uh we learned right so one of the important things I learned was uh about oxytocin right so when you you know have direct eye to eye contact right so your body releases oxytocin right which increases a pond between two person right that's how the baby you know with mom or you know if you are in you know having you know somebody spouse or partner right eye to eye contact right so this is one thing I learned is like when you are talking to teen Right? When you're talking to clients, right? So, how to talk right? height how to make this contact when this you know chemical releases or you know armor releases and you know there is more loyalty right so your chances of closing that deal deal are much higher so things like that

are you doing a lot of in person or eye to eye virtually is that uh it sounds you have an office you said in India

yeah I we have office in Newark also I'm in Newark California so we have d in India we have few folks in Melbourne we have uh few in Canada. So like I said, right? Uh so if we uh you know find somebody good, right, we'll find ways to hire them.

No, is it hybrid or is everybody going five days a week?

It's hybrid. So most of the guys are remote. Yeah, it's most of the guys are remote. So for example, so let's say Mumbai, right? So like I said, I'm a people first, right? Person. So Mumbai you know people going to office they're spending two hours in commute going two hours coming back right that's four hours

that's miserable

so that's miserable right so what I do is like if I give them remote possibility right or remote option these guys will be saving those four hours right they could spend those four hours in taking care of care care of the kids beds right family

working on burbles what

yeah

yeah so you know like I said right I don't want to put extra burden on team also I right I want to have that work life balance where you know everybody's happy because if you are happy right your work quality improves so much you know and you you know you are able to do a better job in less time

I love it I think not not enough founders and sales are thinking about that right like hey is my team happy are they are they enjoying what they do uh so that's I think that's wonderful advice to leave our our listeners Wait here. Uh, where can folk find you and who should be finding Birbals?

Yeah. So, uh, people can, uh, you know, your audience can find me on berbles.com. They can also connect with me on LinkedIn, right? And, uh, where we have, uh, you know, launched a program called Launchpad. So, you know, you can go to Birbals and go to that page, right? where we are inviting founders or entrepreneurs who have certain idea they have built a MVP so what we do is right we'll give them a launch where we have the whole engineering team all marketing everything ready so you know we can help them with you know building the product marketing raising funds things like that and uh they don't need to worry about anything they'll have the equity bureaus have a certain chunk but uh you know the wonder will have the most of the equity

how exciting and uh if you're listening to that you listen to the show and you know that it's not going to be AI's lop uh because team is there's a human in the loop. It's not it's not fully uh so it's uh it's not just going to be some clouds lock thrown at you. It's

Yeah. So like you know just to mention another thing right so for uh you know pet lovers and pet owners we just launched an app called keppy.ai AI. So it's available on Android, right? You can create your pet profile, you know, have a social media for them, have their ancestral records all using AI vaccination records, things like that. So you know, and the tagline we have is like every pet every moment forever. So if you have pet lovers, you know, download it and support us.

Love it. Thank you. Thank you so much for being on who we hired, sharing your journey and your stories. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for having me, Louis.